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ScotlandIsBest
paladinbob123
Jadli
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JadliSite Owner- Join date : 2018-01-11
Reputation : 7
Posts : 149
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:42 am
Britannia
The Isles of Chaos
The games have begun.
Admin - Jadli
Co-Admin - Ramble12
Using a slightly modified Britannia campaign, see spoiler for .rar file download link:
- Spoiler:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5yndybKc5a_X3BXdXh2cjRzakU/view
( + hotfix - extract into british_isles/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_camapign)
Players
England - Hannibal2001
The Baron's Alliance - paladinbob123
Scotland - ScotlandIsBest
Ireland - PeaMan
Wales - CommodusIV
Norway - Der Böse Wolf
- Description:
The British Isles have been a bed for war and chaos since the Normans came across the English Channel. No, that's not true. The Isles have always been a chaotic place, dotted with kingdoms, Covered in war, with nations trying to win the hearts of people to take up arms for causes that they usually couldn't care less about. Of course, they care when invading armies are storming their lands.
There were the Romans, who came across the channel and tried to conquer the Isles. They only partially succeeded. There were the Saxons, a primal force of British fury that seemingly won the war of power for a while. Then there were the Normans, who beat them to a pulp and took their place. None of them ever boasted uncontested domination of the Isles.
It is the modern state of England, descendants of the Norman legacy, that is in a position to assert its authority over the entirety of the Isles. Yet, while the goal seems so close, it is truly still far away. The Welsh are lead by a new uniting upstart who is more than happy to contest England's superiority. Ireland, an almost secure English haven, has united under one King and become a true royal thorn in the side of the English command there. The Scots have never looked upon England as a superior power, and there's even upstarts from Scandinavia stirring up trouble. Was that enough? No, of course not. Now there's a band of Barons demanding the limitation of the King's power, and it won't be long before they start to cause trouble. England has a choice - work with the Barons and keep peace, if only for a little while, or mercilessly assail them until they howl their adoration and loyalty to the feet of the King. Fighting them is costly, and serves only to weaken them. Unity is advisable, at least for now. But letting them continue could be considered a sign of weakness, and their demands can only get worse. This is all while the Welsh want their taste of English territory, the Irish want their homes back, the Scots seek greater power and the Norwegian pests continue their antics...
The Baron's Alliance is in a unique state for being the first true front against the English Crown. They stand for the People of England, the Law, blah blah blah. Truth is, they stand to drag the King down and bring up their own power in its place, and for once, they have the unity and means to have a shot at it. Yet there are many enemies around, many places loyal to the king, and other nations are quite likely to use the chaos of any open combat to tear into the English provinces. Thus, it is in the best interests of the Barons to declare their status as being a solid force, and then make further declarations to see how far the King can be tested. For now, they will likely wait, even act on the King's behalf for some task or another. But they cannot be held back forever...
Wales, a place in dire straits for some time now, has been momentarily relieved by the potential issues of the Baron's Alliance and other issues across the English territory. The time is now, not long after the official declaration of independence from Wales, to secure a legacy and show the English who the true masters are. From there... what then? Will they strike at the Scots? Will they help liberate the Irish, or conquer them? Will they engage in combat with the Norwegian newcomers? Perhaps they will make alliances with some of these nations, or be conquered by them? Perhaps they will see the merits of aiding the Barons, or offering to aid against the Barons in exchange for a temporary respite? Time will tell, as well as the first moves of the newly united Welsh state... it is these first moves, and early pacts, that will determine their future...
Ireland has been a scattered, ineffective territory - until now. Now, Ireland is in a position to become possibly a real country, a place of its own again, and this time with the strength of character that can only come from the true backbone of a king. The Irish must first deal with the English invaders, but from there, they have possible issues with the raids of the Norwegians, or even the Scots, or perhaps even the Welsh. Or perhaps England will quickly get over its squabbles and send a far greater force across the small sea to ensure Ireland stays "in its place". A king to unite the Irish brings opportunities, but it also brings problems and gambles, as well as hard decisions to be made...
Scotland, a proud, old land where independence is key and where southern traditions and sophistication are simply unnecessary. That was then, at least. Now, England is a potent enemy, capable of being a true threat to the Scots should it settle its problems quickly and strike to the north. Now, the Norwegians have established a foothold to the north, and the first clear target is Scotland. If the Scots can defeat them quickly or convince them to move elsewhere for the time being is the question at the moment. Scotland will need to become united in order to face the possible issues of expansionist factions in the British Isles that are bent on being the greatest faction on the Isles. If Scotland can get its own borders in order, perhaps Scotland will be in a good position to emerge as a power to rival the traditionally powerful English... perhaps, they'll be able to do much better than just raid a few border towns...
The Norwegian presence is small, and honestly, the glory days of taking the Isles ended many years ago. However, the King has decided that a change is in order - it is ripe time to take advantage of the issues and wars looming on the Isles to create a new territory, a place where colonies can form and last many more years than the colonies of the past. It will not be an easy task - the people of the Isles are no strangers to war, and will likely not take kindly to the interjection of old invaders. Still, perhaps pacts can be made, short term as they may be. They may take the geographically convenient route, and harass the Scots. Perhaps they can help tear the English down... or align with the English and put down the upstart other factions. Perhaps they can cause trouble in every theater, keeping everyone weak, so they can be handled piecemeal. Such actions would take considerable cunning from the Norwegian lords. The lack of knowing what the Norwegians are about to do can be considered one of their strengths, yet that position makes it difficult for them to trust anyone, let alone for anyone to trust them...
War is brewing across the Isles, and the first actions of the various lords will change the course of history forever. Only one people can emerge as the greatest nation of the Isles. Yet it's a long, hard road to get there...
Rules
- Spoiler:
The rules are pretty simple and resemble the norm on TWC, so if you've done other hotseats on this site, nothing here should be too surprising. Roleplay-related contents come in the Mechanics section.
1> No exploitation of bugs or game mechanics.
Including, but not limited to...- Spoiler:
1) The naval fort bug: No using ships to bypass a fort's or a settlement's Zone of Control.
2) Spam siege bug: Besieging a fort/settlement with a force far superior in it, in order to either prevent that army from reinforcing or in order to cut down settlements income is not allowed. Same goes for blockading ports with ships.
3) Ambush fort bug: No luring men in ambush position into ZoC of forts\settlement's as such robbing them of their movement points.
4) Siege reinforcement bug: when the army is adjacent to a fort or a settlements that has been put under siege it cannot reinforce armies adjacent to him which he should have been able to reinforce on normal occasions. Attacking an army which the siege reinforcements bug applies to is not allowed
Navy inside ports attacked bug: no using this bug to attack ships which are inside ports.
5) Yoyo armies\forts bug: no attacking an army which the bug has been used on multiple times. You can see when this bug occurs, as the enemy army enters the fort and then leaves it.
6) Attacking ships inside the port - Attacking ships that are inside ports is not allowed.
7) Recruitment pool fill up - Queuing up units in the recruitment slots to increase artificially units/agents maximum number you can recruit in one settlement.
8) Recruiting mercenaries in forts with depleted movement points - Using forts to get illegal maximum movement points to mercenaries in a depleted army.
9) Using ships to get more movement range - Using ships to give more movement range to armies on seas.
10) Placing armies inside ships that are inside ports to render them inaccessible and invincible until the settlement is out of the owning player's control..
2> You either win a battle, or you reload the turn and not fight it at all. No defeats.
3> Heroic Victories are not allowed, unless it is the only possible outcome in a scenario.
4> Auto Resolve only, with screenshots from just before the battle and after the battle.
5> If an army is defeated by an earlier player in the turn order, it cannot have any movement points used for one turn by the player that comes later in the turn order. Defeated forces in garrisons are exempt from this rule.
6> You may not attack a player that has not played their first turn.
7> Extermination is not allowed.
8> Forts and watchtowers are unregulated. The forts are already placed on the map anyways.
9> You cannot stop an enemy army from retreating into a settlement by besieging the settlement just defeating the enemy army in battle.
10> Settlements cannot be gifted while in a war zone. The new owners must destroy all but one unit in the new settlement after a gifting has taken place.
11> Buildings can only be destroyed under the following conditions: a) the territory does not border a neutral or enemy faction, b) there are no nearby enemy troops that can reach the settlement in 1 turn, and c) the settlement has been in the current owner's possession for more than 3 turns. It is prohibited to destroy buildings in advance of an assault, or a perceived assault.
12> Refer to the mechanics section for the game's policies on the use of agents and the use of siege equipment. Not all of the mechanics are law. These two things are law.
Game Mechanics
This is largely a proposal of mechanics, and so, changeable. The admin might have something to say on them, who knows.
Note that, in this game, roleplay is strongly encouraged, but not regulated. That is, you will not be harassed to a particular set of standards. However, joining the roleplay means that you intend to do roleplaying with your faction. This is intended for people who legitimately enjoy the act of presenting characters or a faction for roleplay purposes. The goal is not, at least in the short term, to build a bunch of armies and destroy everything. The idea is to create a story, to present a context, and use the mechanics above and below as well as the mechanics in game to help the roleplay efforts. Basically, this is supposed to be for people that like to actually roleplay, and not a hack and slash competitive environment. Strategy will take part, certainly, but the spirit of the game is roleplaying.
You can be removed for sabotaging roleplay or for not roleplaying at all. While there are no strict regulations for the degree you need to take this (you can take it as far as you want if you fit in the time) the idea is that you participate in both the hotseat aspect and the roleplay aspect.
Agent Use
Merchants
A merchant must have a 60% chance to succeed in acquisition before being able to take over another merchant.
Spies
Spies may enter settlements and be recruited without a numbers cap. In the case of settlements, you may only use the [Assault] option if there is over 60% chance of opening the gates and if there are less than 720 men in the settlement. If both conditions are not met, the spy will fail to open the gates, regardless of what the game tells you.
Assassin
An assassin may only kill merchants with a 60% success chance and generals with an 80% chance. Other assassins, 40%, and also spies at 40%. Each faction is entitled to one assassin, plus one more for each ten regions owned. A faction with 10 regions would have two assassins, a faction with 20 regions 3 assassins, and so on.
Sabotage in all cases requires 70% success chance minimum.
Actions should be recorded via screenshot; however, evidence does not need to be presented unless it is asked for by the Admin. Failing to have the screenshots if asked by the admin may result in Unrest Penalties.
Siege
To be allowed to assault a settlement, you need fulfill requirements for siege artillery and siege equipment below, not only one of them.
- Screnshots are required for all info relevant to your siege.
Siege Artillery Mechanics
Ballista can take out anything with wooden walls, provided there are two of them in the besieging forces.
Catapults can take out wooden walls and forts solo; two catapults must be used to breach castle/city walls. For forts you need only one ballista.
Trebuchets can take out all walls up to fortress solo; two are required for a fortress and a citadel. Huge cities follow fortress/citadel rules.
Two catapults and a trebuchet are interchangeable when reading these rules. If you need a trebuchet to knock something down, but only have a pair of catapults, you're solid. If you want to counter someone's catapult that sits in a settlement, but you only have a trebuchet, then the trebuchet will overrule the catapult and count as an extra catapult.
Riabults can only knock down the simplest level of wooden walls.
Bombards follow the same rules of use as catapults. They can replace superior cannons in the same way that catapults can replace trebuchets.
Larger cannons more advanced than the bombard (not monster riabult, see above) follow Trebuchet rules.
A siege weapon can only participate once every two turns. That is, you cannot use it for one siege, and turn it around to be used in another siege the following turn or during the current turn.
In addition, defending forces may include siege equipment in their own cities. If that is the case, you must match their siege equipment, as their equipment cancels out your own. If they have a catapult, you need to have one more catapult. If they have two catapults, you need a trebuchet to counter them and then use the amount of siege equipment required to breach the walls.
- However, siege artillery itself is not enough to assault a settlement. Continue reading below...
Next Stage of Sieges - Siege Equipment
This is where things get more interesting.
> If there are less than 4 full units or less than 250 men in a besieged settlement, only a battering ram is required to be able to breach a set of walls.
> If there are more than 4 full units or 250 men in a besieged settlement, you must have a 1:1 ratio of ground units to enemy ground units (you do not need to match enemy artillery or cavalry). If this condition is met, you must create a ladder for four foot units in the case of a castle, five ladders against a fortress, and six ladders against a citadel.
> If a besieged settlement isn't big enough for ladders to have any use, a battering ram is enough. That means settlements with wooden pallisades - motte and bailley and smalll towns. (forts fall into this category too)
> Rebel cities only require the siege equipment rules, and not the extended battering ram/ladder requirements.
- To remind again, you need to fullfil also requirements for siege artillery, not only siege equipment.
- You can start building siege equipment before you fullfil siege artillery requirements.
This is an adaptation of rules used by my old group, MTWGG, on Steam for adding a little realism in sieges to the mix.
Diplomacy
An agreement can be considered official or unofficial. Official agreements are posted at the time of their presentation by the player who creates them, and can compose of either text in a player's post at the end of their turn, or of a screenshot(s) of the treaty as written ingame. It may also be followed by ingame diplomacy.
Unofficial treaties can be made with no statement at all to the world at large; however, there is no true obligation to follow them.
Official treaties may be made in one of the following formats, or created freeform and recorded in their entirety. While ingame penalties do not exist for not following them, you will lose your reliability if you break them (for the course of the game). Treaty types relative to the game are as follows:
> Treaty of becoming a Vassal. Proposed by a conqueror, or even proposed before the conquest, that obligates the accepting faction to be in a military alliance with their master. The military assets of that faction are expected to attack their lord's enemies. While the following in-game related terms can be negotiated, a conqueror can demand up to: no more than 2 units in each settlement/5 in one turn's distance to a region in the case of recruitment, the surrender of all but two regions to the superior faction, the removal of all merchants from competing (vassal or overlord's) resources, military assistance against other factions, all under pain of a public declaration of the faction's destruction upon failure to meet the terms (should the council of nobles, aka the admin, consent to the action). Military actions, assassination attempts, and merchant acquisitions can be taken as an act of war and a breach of the treaty, and the ruling faction has no obligation to show the vassal any mercy for the duration of the game. This can be used in place for a Treaty of Surrender as a win condition, though it is not required. This is accompanied with the ingame faction becoming a Vassal.
> Treaty of Surrender. The faction to accept this treaty becomes a vassal ingame, and is supposed to no longer participate in wars. This counts towards a faction's Win Condition. If the treaty is broken, you may be considered less reliable, and there is no obligation to spare you for this broken treaty. However, breaking the treaty will allow you to participate in war against your overlord and align with your former overlord's enemies, and no longer counts towards their Win Condition. Useful if you want another player to keep on going, but don't want them to be an all-out slave faction. Under this treaty, the surrendering faction may only attack its overlord's enemies, and hold no alliances with enemies of the
Further treaties can be arranged between players. Players can agree to harsher variants of the above, but are not obliged to do so. Refusal of the first treaty is not grounds for destruction if the treaty contained items restricting gameplay beyond what has been allowed.
In win conditions, three scales are used. Requiring a treaty of surrender is a third scale action, a treaty making a faction a vassal is a second scale action, and destruction is a third scale action. Typically, factions require one second scale action and two third scale actions. First and second scale factions can be used in place of second/third scale actions, and first can take place of third, if the enemy faction leaves you with no choice. Specific conditions are noted below - all you need to know here is that making someone a vassal instead of making them surrender is OK, and destruction of a faction legally is also OK in place of an otherwise standard winning condition.
Time Limits
48 hours, maximum 24 hour exemption. Feel free to take up the time required if it is used to prepare roleplay content - otherwise, try to get your turn in as soon as is reasonable. Your turn may be skipped or taken by the admin if you pass the time or can't make it. A week of unscheduled (ie, you didn't find a replacement beforehand) inactivity will result in the faction being relegated to a passive role with the faction leader eliminated (unless doing so would destroy the faction) until a replacement can be found. Other players will be able to act normally. Same rules for interaction apply when a replacement is being found; if you want to be a good sport, not going after the faction during that time is helpful unless they have troops in your territory/right on the edge. The admin will take control of passive factions until they are filled; roleplaying is not mandatory so long as a faction is in passive and not under the control of an outside player. A passive faction will not create units or modify its position unless there are armies in its territory, in which case simple moves to defend itself are allowed. The idea behind the elimination of the faction leader is to allow for the new player to create an introduction involving their new faction leader.
Win Conditions
- Spoiler:
The following conditions exist for the endgame. They shouldn't be short term goals, and roleplaying is again highly encouraged. These are conditions for you to be considered the greatest power on the British Isles.
Note: At minimum, a Treaty to become a vassal must be posed to a faction on the turn that it would be otherwise destroyed. If the faction refuses the treaty, destruction is an option.
A faction cannot win and be under a Treaty of Surrender or be a vassal to any state.
You may not gift settlements to help further a faction's win conditions, nor is it in good taste and compliant with the rules to surrender when you are still capable of presenting a solid fight. If you want to quit, say so so that a replacement can be found - don't simply default at the first sign of not making your win condition. Roleplaying is, after all, a focus here, and the win conditions are more of a long term goal of being considered leader of the Isles.
Also note that the agreements necessary to win are bitter pills to swallow, facts that should be noted during the game. It's not easy sucking up and admitting another nation is better, and it simply isn't plausible that your people are just going to understand, just like that, unless you're put under excruciating circumstances that the people can understand.
If the Baron's Alliance is close to securing its own winning conditions in regards to England, or is at least as big as England, it may be used in place of England.
If a faction has already been destroyed, it can count in another faction's win conditions.
England
> Must have Wales as a vassal state (or legally destroyed) with an official treaty stating that Wales is entirely under the authority of the English and at least an official Treaty of Surrender from Scotland and Ireland.
> Must posses all of its starting territories, plus ten more.
> Must have subjugated the Baron's Alliance (or legally destroyed them) to secure the ultimate power of the English King. This cannot be mitigated as per above; they must be vassals or destroyed.
The Baron's Alliance
> Must have England under a treaty equivalent to making it a vassal (or legally destroyed), to simulate the English crown being left with nearly zero power. This cannot be mitigated as per above; they must be vassals or destroyed.
> Scotland, Ireland, and Wales must be subjugated to at least a Treaty of Surrender.
> Must posses starting English territories plus ten more; the territories of vassal England can count towards this. Must control London and Dublin; England may not control either province.
Scotland
> Must have all starting territories and ten more.
> Must have England subjugated to a Treaty of Surrender and have Norway forced off the British Isles completely and made as a vassal.
Wales
> Must have starting territories, plus 23 more, including two starting English territories.
> Must have England as a vassal and two of three factions under a Treaty of Surrender: Scotland, Norway, and Ireland. You may create a treaty to control England alongside the Irish if you desire - or you can take them out too.
Ireland
> Must have the entirety of Ireland under control, plus 20 more regions, including two starting English territories.
> Must have England as a vassal and two of three factions under a Treaty of Surrender: Scotland, Norway, and Wales. You may create a treaty to control England alongside the Welsh if you desire - or you can take them out too.
Norway
> Must have either England or Scotland completely subjugated as a vassal, and either Wales or Ireland subject to a Treaty of Surrender.
> Must have all islands in the British Isles, plus 20 regions on the mainland, including three regions out of the starting territories of England or Scotland.
Requirements for individual factions to be vassals may be swapped with the subjugation (Treaty of Surrender or more) of two other factions. Treaties of Surrender can conceivably be written to be more acknowledgements of authority - you recognize the power of a given nation, and the requirements to establish the agreement may be made more lax.
paladinbob123- Join date : 2018-01-12
Reputation : 18
Posts : 83
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:47 pm
I think wise coffin has left ,but willing to continue here, if the players support such a move.....but equally to continue , we will need another English player
ScotlandIsBest- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Posts : 44
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:24 pm
Agreed I'm more than willing to continue
Der Böse Wolf- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Posts : 31
Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:47 pm
Of course I'm in. I hope The Wise Coffin comes along.
Waiting for Ireland and Wales to confirm.
Waiting for Ireland and Wales to confirm.
- ScotlandIsBest
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Posts : 44
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:50 pm
Commodus is back I'm pretty sure so just Ireland
- JadliSite Owner
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:41 pm
Yea. Will try to ask around for someone to play England. If I dont find anyone Ill sub somewhere around tomorrow 
CommodusIV- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Posts : 35
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:58 pm
Haven't heard from Coffin yet. Things will continue here, then, in which case the first save can go off to the saves thread. Feel free to make suggestions for improving the site's structure, in the meantime. I can attempt to poke a person for replacement, though I'm not sure if I can get to him in good time, nor am I sure that he will be willing to participate.
- JadliSite Owner
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:18 pm
Coffin told he wil not continue, thus a replacement is needed as I said
- CommodusIV
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:27 pm
The user I hinted at doesn't seem to be coming. Unless he instantly pops in, I don't think there's a good chance of seeing him >.<
- Der Böse Wolf
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:03 pm
Do we have any news regarding an England player?
Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
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Location : Romania
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:15 pm
I'll need a CS from the admin .
.- Der Böse Wolf
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:26 pm
Brilliant, welcome aboard!
Do you wish me to give an overview of the Norwegian-English relations up until this point, in PM, of course?
Do you wish me to give an overview of the Norwegian-English relations up until this point, in PM, of course?
- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:45 pm
Everyone is free to do so.
PeaMan- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:03 pm
Alas! We can finally continue, all is as it should be.
- CommodusIV
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:54 pm
Der Böse Wolf wrote:Oh wow, things got heavy real quick.
Just a reminder to Hannibal, since he just joined the HS, about the siege equipment rules:
"A siege weapon can only participate once every two turns. That is, you cannot use it for one siege, and turn it around to be used in another siege the following turn or during the current turn."
So England cannot assault Cardiff next turn as it had already used the catapults to attack Pembroke.
Rest assured, Hannibal has the full grasps of the mechanics necessary to whack me :p
- CommodusIV
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:01 pm
Der Bose, while I do not recall the exact circumstances of the sieges, one settlement was taken by catapults and on the same turn the other settlement (which was somewhat weak in defenses in the first place, kinda had a minimum in there) was besieged by a much larger stack. Presumably, he created the appropriate siege equipment and sallied from there. Hannibal made strong attempts to clarify the rules beforehand. But, I can attempt to get an admin's eye in if that would be satisfactory.
- Der Böse Wolf
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Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:36 pm
I understand, and I'm not trying to be picky whatsoever.
But I thought the rules obliged any siege to have both siege equipment AND artillery (which can't be used twice in two consecutive turns) for the assault to be possible (unless a spy opens the gates).
So even if Cardiff was besieged with overwhelming forces, it cannot be assaulted without artillery (which I assume were used to take Pembroke).
So Cardiff can only be taken on England's next turn and not in the previous one as is the case now....unless England had a spy in Cardiff with over 60% chance to open the gates) or if England had another set of catapults.
But since no screenshots were posted, we don't know.
Again, not trying to be a pain in the ass, but I just want the rules to be followed.
For me, I don't care about winning or losing, I have fun roleplaying and storytelling so I'm not being picky just to annoy.
But I thought the rules obliged any siege to have both siege equipment AND artillery (which can't be used twice in two consecutive turns) for the assault to be possible (unless a spy opens the gates).
So even if Cardiff was besieged with overwhelming forces, it cannot be assaulted without artillery (which I assume were used to take Pembroke).
So Cardiff can only be taken on England's next turn and not in the previous one as is the case now....unless England had a spy in Cardiff with over 60% chance to open the gates) or if England had another set of catapults.
But since no screenshots were posted, we don't know.
Again, not trying to be a pain in the ass, but I just want the rules to be followed.
For me, I don't care about winning or losing, I have fun roleplaying and storytelling so I'm not being picky just to annoy.
- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:43 pm
I discussed this with Commodus and he told me that only high level cities are required to be taken both with siege equipment and artillery. Cardiff was just a town so I had the option to take it only with siege equipment. I built the required equipment as the rules said and then took it with overwhelming odds and won it without many casualties so pics are not required unless Commodus demands them. I did everything according to the rules.Der Böse Wolf wrote:I understand, and I'm not trying to be picky whatsoever.
But I thought the rules obliged any siege to have both siege equipment AND artillery (which can't be used twice in two consecutive turns) for the assault to be possible (unless a spy opens the gates).
So even if Cardiff was besieged with overwhelming forces, it cannot be assaulted without artillery (which I assume were used to take Pembroke).
So Cardiff can only be taken on England's next turn and not in the previous one as is the case now....unless England had a spy in Cardiff with over 60% chance to open the gates) or if England had another set of catapults.
But since no screenshots were posted, we don't know.
Again, not trying to be a pain in the ass, but I just want the rules to be followed.
For me, I don't care about winning or losing, I have fun roleplaying and storytelling so I'm not being picky just to annoy.
- Der Böse Wolf
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:48 pm
Sure man, I'm not accusing you of cheating, I just want to understand what happened as it seems I understood the rules differently.
- CommodusIV
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:23 pm
Perhaps pics would be good, indicating the equipment in use to take the settlement, to try and bring this to a quick conclusion.
- JadliSite Owner
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Posts : 149
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:30 pm
Considering there are many requirements for siege rules always provide pics, as you need to show how many men is in the garisson, level of the settlements, etc to prove you did it with accordance to the rules
Settlements not being big enough to be relevant for the ladder rules are only those with wooden pallisades (forts, motte and bailey, small towns. And villages ofc), as you cant put ladders on them, while you can put them on wooden walls (towns and wooden castles).
So please shows us the pics
Considering Cardiff had 640 men and wooden walls I suspect rules were broken?
Settlements not being big enough to be relevant for the ladder rules are only those with wooden pallisades (forts, motte and bailey, small towns. And villages ofc), as you cant put ladders on them, while you can put them on wooden walls (towns and wooden castles).
So please shows us the pics
Considering Cardiff had 640 men and wooden walls I suspect rules were broken?
- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
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Location : Romania
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:07 pm
Jadli wrote:Considering there are many requirements for siege rules always provide pics, as you need to show how many men is in the garisson, level of the settlements, etc to prove you did it with accordance to the rules
Settlements not being big enough to be relevant for the ladder rules are only those with wooden pallisades (forts, motte and bailey, small towns. And villages ofc), as you cant put ladders on them, while you can put them on wooden walls (towns and wooden castles).
So please shows us the pics
Considering Cardiff had 640 men and wooden walls I suspect rules were broken?
Rules were not broken as I've clarified this with Commodus before playing and he told that I can assault it with siege equipment. I did not use a spy or artillery from the previous assault. I built the siege equipment enforced by the rules and assault it according to the rules
.- Der Böse Wolf
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:31 pm
I know why there is so much confusion, as I had the same doubts regarding the siege rules before.
Before I explain, I just want to state that, as per the rules, screenshots are mandatory for all battles and only optional when it involves agents.
Regarding the siege rules here is the text:
"Siege Mechanics
Siege Equipment Prerequisites
Ballista can take out anything with wooden walls, provided there are two of them in the besieging forces.
Catapults can take out wooden walls and forts solo; two catapults must be used to breach castle/city walls.
Trebuchets can take out all walls up to fortress solo; two are required for a fortress and a citadel. Huge cities follow fortress/citadel rules.
Two catapults and a trebuchet are interchangeable when reading these rules. If you need a trebuchet to knock something down, but only have a pair of catapults, you're solid. If you want to counter someone's catapult that sits in a settlement, but you only have a trebuchet, then the trebuchet will overrule the catapult and count as an extra catapult.
Riabults can only knock down the simplest level of wooden walls.
Bombards follow the same rules of use as catapults. They can replace superior cannons in the same way that catapults can replace trebuchets.
Larger cannons more advanced than the bombard (not monster riabult, see above) follow Trebuchet rules.
A siege weapon can only participate once every two turns. That is, you cannot use it for one siege, and turn it around to be used in another siege the following turn or during the current turn.
In addition, defending forces may include siege equipment in their own cities. If that is the case, you must match their siege equipment, as their equipment cancels out your own. If they have a catapult, you need to have one more catapult. If they have two catapults, you need a trebuchet to counter them and then use the amount of siege equipment required to breach the walls.
Next Stage of Sieges
This is where things get more interesting.
> If there are less than 4 full units or less than 250 men in a besieged settlement, only a battering ram is required to be able to breach a set of walls.
> If there are more than 4 full units or 250 men in a besieged settlement, you must have a 1:1 ratio of ground units to enemy ground units (you do not need to match enemy artillery or cavalry). If this condition is met, you must create a ladder for four foot units in the case of a castle, five ladders against a fortress, and six ladders against a citadel.
> If a besieged town isn't big enough for ladders to be relevant, skip these rules, and only use the equipment rules above.
> Rebel cities only require the siege equipment rules, and not the extended battering ram/ladder requirements."
As you can see, artillery is MANDATORY (Siege equipment prerequisites). The ladders rule (Next stage of Sieges) comes after the Prerequisites.
I also had doubt about this but Commodus explained in the original thread in the previous forum, that indeed we need both artillery and siege equipment. The idea was to make conquest slower.
This is why I was surprised how England took two cities in two consecutive turns as it was impossible as per the rules (using th same artillery) unless an agent was used.
So the assault of Cardiff can not take place without the SIEGE PREREQUISITES, ie Artillery.
It's not Hannibal's fault though as either Commodus failed to clarify this to him or Hannibal didn't understand it correctly, just like I did before.
So all sieges require artillery as a prerequisite.
Before I explain, I just want to state that, as per the rules, screenshots are mandatory for all battles and only optional when it involves agents.
Regarding the siege rules here is the text:
"Siege Mechanics
Siege Equipment Prerequisites
Ballista can take out anything with wooden walls, provided there are two of them in the besieging forces.
Catapults can take out wooden walls and forts solo; two catapults must be used to breach castle/city walls.
Trebuchets can take out all walls up to fortress solo; two are required for a fortress and a citadel. Huge cities follow fortress/citadel rules.
Two catapults and a trebuchet are interchangeable when reading these rules. If you need a trebuchet to knock something down, but only have a pair of catapults, you're solid. If you want to counter someone's catapult that sits in a settlement, but you only have a trebuchet, then the trebuchet will overrule the catapult and count as an extra catapult.
Riabults can only knock down the simplest level of wooden walls.
Bombards follow the same rules of use as catapults. They can replace superior cannons in the same way that catapults can replace trebuchets.
Larger cannons more advanced than the bombard (not monster riabult, see above) follow Trebuchet rules.
A siege weapon can only participate once every two turns. That is, you cannot use it for one siege, and turn it around to be used in another siege the following turn or during the current turn.
In addition, defending forces may include siege equipment in their own cities. If that is the case, you must match their siege equipment, as their equipment cancels out your own. If they have a catapult, you need to have one more catapult. If they have two catapults, you need a trebuchet to counter them and then use the amount of siege equipment required to breach the walls.
Next Stage of Sieges
This is where things get more interesting.
> If there are less than 4 full units or less than 250 men in a besieged settlement, only a battering ram is required to be able to breach a set of walls.
> If there are more than 4 full units or 250 men in a besieged settlement, you must have a 1:1 ratio of ground units to enemy ground units (you do not need to match enemy artillery or cavalry). If this condition is met, you must create a ladder for four foot units in the case of a castle, five ladders against a fortress, and six ladders against a citadel.
> If a besieged town isn't big enough for ladders to be relevant, skip these rules, and only use the equipment rules above.
> Rebel cities only require the siege equipment rules, and not the extended battering ram/ladder requirements."
As you can see, artillery is MANDATORY (Siege equipment prerequisites). The ladders rule (Next stage of Sieges) comes after the Prerequisites.
I also had doubt about this but Commodus explained in the original thread in the previous forum, that indeed we need both artillery and siege equipment. The idea was to make conquest slower.
This is why I was surprised how England took two cities in two consecutive turns as it was impossible as per the rules (using th same artillery) unless an agent was used.
So the assault of Cardiff can not take place without the SIEGE PREREQUISITES, ie Artillery.
It's not Hannibal's fault though as either Commodus failed to clarify this to him or Hannibal didn't understand it correctly, just like I did before.
So all sieges require artillery as a prerequisite.
- JadliSite Owner
- Join date : 2018-01-11
Reputation : 7
Posts : 149
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:41 pm
You still havent showed us whether you had enough ladders...
- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Posts : 105
Location : Romania
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:42 pm
Where exactly is it mandatory? You just copy and pasted a text you don't explain anythingDer Böse Wolf wrote:I know why there is so much confusion, as I had the same doubts regarding the siege rules before.
Before I explain, I just want to state that, as per the rules, screenshots are mandatory for all battles and only optional when it involves agents.
Regarding the siege rules here is the text:
"Siege Mechanics
Siege Equipment Prerequisites
Ballista can take out anything with wooden walls, provided there are two of them in the besieging forces.
Catapults can take out wooden walls and forts solo; two catapults must be used to breach castle/city walls.
Trebuchets can take out all walls up to fortress solo; two are required for a fortress and a citadel. Huge cities follow fortress/citadel rules.
Two catapults and a trebuchet are interchangeable when reading these rules. If you need a trebuchet to knock something down, but only have a pair of catapults, you're solid. If you want to counter someone's catapult that sits in a settlement, but you only have a trebuchet, then the trebuchet will overrule the catapult and count as an extra catapult.
Riabults can only knock down the simplest level of wooden walls.
Bombards follow the same rules of use as catapults. They can replace superior cannons in the same way that catapults can replace trebuchets.
Larger cannons more advanced than the bombard (not monster riabult, see above) follow Trebuchet rules.
A siege weapon can only participate once every two turns. That is, you cannot use it for one siege, and turn it around to be used in another siege the following turn or during the current turn.
In addition, defending forces may include siege equipment in their own cities. If that is the case, you must match their siege equipment, as their equipment cancels out your own. If they have a catapult, you need to have one more catapult. If they have two catapults, you need a trebuchet to counter them and then use the amount of siege equipment required to breach the walls.
Next Stage of Sieges
This is where things get more interesting.
> If there are less than 4 full units or less than 250 men in a besieged settlement, only a battering ram is required to be able to breach a set of walls.
> If there are more than 4 full units or 250 men in a besieged settlement, you must have a 1:1 ratio of ground units to enemy ground units (you do not need to match enemy artillery or cavalry). If this condition is met, you must create a ladder for four foot units in the case of a castle, five ladders against a fortress, and six ladders against a citadel.
> If a besieged town isn't big enough for ladders to be relevant, skip these rules, and only use the equipment rules above.
> Rebel cities only require the siege equipment rules, and not the extended battering ram/ladder requirements."
As you can see, artillery is MANDATORY (Siege equipment prerequisites). The ladders rule (Next stage of Sieges) comes after the Prerequisites.
I also had doubt about this but Commodus explained in the original thread in the previous forum, that indeed we need both artillery and siege equipment. The idea was to make conquest slower.
This is why I was surprised how England took two cities in two consecutive turns as it was impossible as per the rules (using th same artillery) unless an agent was used.
So the assault of Cardiff can not take place without the SIEGE PREREQUISITES, ie Artillery.
It's not Hannibal's fault though as either Commodus failed to clarify this to him or Hannibal didn't understand it correctly, just like I did before.
So all sieges require artillery as a prerequisite.
. I discussed this with Commodus who made the rules and told me that I can assault with just siege equipment as artillery and siege equipment is required only for high level settlements like fortresses or citadels. Cardiff is just a large town. This is getting rather annoying as I did everything according to the rules and consulted with the guy who made them before playing.- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Posts : 105
Location : Romania
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:43 pm
I had 8 foot units and according to the rules I need to build a ladder for each 4 units so I built 2 ladders. In addition to that I added an extra unit to have a battering ram as well. Let me pull up the screenshot .Jadli wrote:You still havent showed us whether you had enough ladders...
As you can see I have the required ammount of units and ladders to take the settlement.
- Der Böse Wolf
- Join date : 2018-01-12
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Posts : 31
Location : Germany
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:50 pm
I'm sorry Hannibal, I know its annoying, but in the text I copy and pasted, it DOES NOT say that artillery are only needed for higher end cities. It also doesn't say that smaller towns are exempt of the artillery rules.
It just say that artillery ir a PREREQUISITE in a siege, and without specifying town or castle size, I assume then that the rule is for ALL sieges.
With that said, if Commodus who put the rules say that they only apply to bigger cities then I'm ok with it, really.
But he must explain it in the rules clearly.
Again, I'm not picking on anyone, I just want it to be clear as now war has started in the campaign and there will be many battles so it's important that we all clearly understand how to conduct sieges...as now I don't know what the rules are anymore.
It just say that artillery ir a PREREQUISITE in a siege, and without specifying town or castle size, I assume then that the rule is for ALL sieges.
With that said, if Commodus who put the rules say that they only apply to bigger cities then I'm ok with it, really.
But he must explain it in the rules clearly.
Again, I'm not picking on anyone, I just want it to be clear as now war has started in the campaign and there will be many battles so it's important that we all clearly understand how to conduct sieges...as now I don't know what the rules are anymore.
- Hannibal20011 Staff Hotseat Victory
- Join date : 2018-01-11
Reputation : 13
Posts : 105
Location : Romania
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:59 pm
Someone has to enlighten us both then as I was given a different sides of the rules if what you say it's true.Der Böse Wolf wrote:as now I don't know what the rules are anymore.
- JadliSite Owner
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:59 pm
Siege artillery is by the rules needed for all sieges indeed, as Der Bose says. "The Next Stages of Siege" assumes you already fullfilled the criteria for the artillery. Nor sure what Commodus told you, maybe he got confused. Would be best if he made it clear asap
- CommodusIV
- Join date : 2018-01-11
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Posts : 35
Re: TIOC - Hotseat Rules and List of Players
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:59 pm
My explanation was poor in the first place. I probably misunderstood/miscommunicated the distinction between the artillery part and the next stage of the rules, as for ladders and such small walls do not need to follow said rules. It would be easy to confuse me on the distinction between siege equipment, the artillery and siege equipment, the ladders and towers and rams >.<. I think, given the ambiguity, we can established that artillery is needed to assault, plus whatever applicable ladders and such in the future. But, as again the rules were not too well written and my explanation was plainly quite poor, I don't think Hanni should be punished for what comes out to be a communication error.
In other words, my recommended course of action is "it stands, but it doesn't work in the future".
In other words, my recommended course of action is "it stands, but it doesn't work in the future".
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